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You people obviously know way, way more about Fanes than I do.

I know that, for years, David Gilmour ran his Hiwatts into WEM cabinets. Did those things contain Fanes? If so, which ones?

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Go Buckeyes!

But how does your BBQ purple stack up?

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

Gilmour's WEM cabs used Fane Crescendo A speakers which are different from the Purple Fanes (in general, more headroom, but that's an oversimplification).

You mean other than the fact that it gets on wonderfully with every amp it meets? Maybe it's a combination of the Triwatt cab we put together for it along with the speakers, but that cab is an absolute gem.

All I can say it it's a very open & articulate speaker, kind of a hi-fi vibe in that respect. They're loud, but they aren't fatiguing. I haven't driven them REALLY hard so I can't speak to compression at extreme volumes, but at moderate power levels (the Triwatt running wide open for example) they don't compress a whole lot & retain definition quite well. They don't seem to "pucker up" (a Fortis term ) a whole lot at those levels. I'll have to hit them hard with the 2204 one of these days & see how they react. The only problem there is I'd have to repaint the room afterward...and maybe do laundry.

I wish I was fortunate enough to have a 70's Fane cab to compare. I have heard sound clips of the Thames in a cab with original Fane Purples and it was pretty close. The Fanes were a touch darker & warmer in those clips, but they had 30 years of break in on them so that's not surprising.

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SG + Brit tube head = Nirvana

I've spent quite a lot of time trawling various Hiwatt related boards on my quest, asking questions from the Hiwatt gurus, in particular members of the Vintage Hiwatt Convention community. These guys are total Hiwatt nuts. Some of them own a dozen or more vintage Hiwatt amps, plus cabs, and anything Hiwatt-related that they don't know, just isn't worth knowing.

A few quick points, which you will see re-iterated in more detail in the excerpts below. The BBQ FC12 is a clone of Fane Crescendo, as used by Dave Gilmour in his WEM speaker cabs. Eminence's Tonker isn't particularly a clone of any specific speaker at all, although many think it has something of a Fane-ish vibe. Not all Eminence Red Coat speakers are clones of something particular.

First, a comment from an Eminence employee starting with the subject of their Vintage Purples, built for Reeves.....

Callaway_1 wrote:

After having broken in Tonkers and several SE4122 and SE4123 cabs from throughout the 1970's.............Tonkers do not sound much like any Fane I have ever heard.

We had some at the Vintage HIWATT Convention a couple years ago and they just weren't even close.

The BBQ FC12s are a little closer but still different. A nice speaker, but distinctly different from a 122142 or 122231 HIWATT Fane.

BlueDog wrote:

The BBQ FC12 by the way, is meant to be a copy of the Fane Crescendo, found in the WEM Super Starfinder 200 cabs that Dave Gilmour uses. Not meant to sound like a Hiwatt Fane.

Callaway_1 wrote:

the THAMES is not in the HIWATT Fane ballpark. Maybe across the street, but not inside the gates.

[J.K.] wrote:

I have (or rather, had; I'm somewhat homeless and ampless at the moment, and all my püp is in storage) some FC12's, and here's my terrible impromptu review given on the HC forums:

Quote:

Basically, it comes down to this:
I got 'em for the same reason I got my Hiwatt: thickness and headroom.
Unfortunately, after playing my Hiwatt at decibels that demolish any positive ties with my neighbors, I realized the thing sounds holy at the verge of breakup... super hi-fi overtones and richness without losing of its body like my Twin used to. It was exciting.
The FC12's are super smooth and have a lot of headroom, and when I first got 'em, I was throwin' out smooth solos like blowjobs in a bordello, and it was bliss. Any effect I threw on there sounded good. ...Anyways, I'd like something a little less smooth that'll break up more easily. After probably 50 hours breaking in the FC12 speakers, I really started to dig them for what they were, but with my playing style, I think other speakers may work better.

Frails wrote:

I have tried BBQ Thames, Hiwatt Legends, Eminence Super V12's and Reeves Vintage Purples. The VP's and V12's are 1A and 1B (which is which depends on the day). As has been mentioned above, you can't buy VP's separately. The V12's run $120 and are 8 Ohm only.

Frails wrote:

Eminence Super V12's are George Lynch's speaker offering. I did a side by side physical review here http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewt ... =super+v12.

Frails wrote:

Comparison's between VP's and V12's are very close. Very full with great low end and mellow highs, not ear piercing at all. I like both so much that I am selling my other speakers and only retaining these two.

And on the subject of the HI-TONE DR-Fs......

OldSchoolDave wrote:

There's more, but these are some of the key snippets...


HTH

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

That's a lot of info! Sounds like these guys are pretty serious about their Hiwatts (not that I can blame them).

Like I say, I don't have the gear available to make a first-hand comparison. All I can say is I love the Thames. I really want to hear a Lynch Super V12 now though. A pair of those would probably have cost less than the Thames after the shipping & exchange!

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SG + Brit tube head = Nirvana

Wow...
Tons of useful and interesting information crawling out into the light.

There's a nice video review of the lynch super v12 on youtube.. but without any kind of direct comparison all I can tell is that it's a good sounding speaker.

I'd really like to check those out. Probably have to rethink the cabinet entirely though... Wouldn't the lynch speaker get drowned out by the 102db can/rex? I understand that sensitivity rating isn't a cut and dry rating, and that the lynch speaker seems to have a little more going on as far as harmonic complexity goes..

Anybody using a mismatch speaker combo where you've got a 2 to 3 db difference in speakers?

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dig it

Basically, they gather once a year, bringing a bunch of their favorite Hiwatt amps and cabs, plus credible clones, and do nothing but play them and compare them against each other. Picture in your mind a huge room with wall to wall Hiwatts. If these guys don't know what real Hiwatt and Fane tones are about, then no one does.


Yes, we need to get all this into perspective. There's no doubt at all that the Thames is a great speaker in its own right, with a reasonably good Fane-ish vibe. Same goes for the Tonker. I came across one guy who commented he would rather pay $70 for a Tonker and get the tone 90% right, than pay $120 to get the tone 100% right. BBQ's FC-12 is also by all accounts a fine equivalent to the Fane Crescendo. So the stuff I posted is based on how closely these speakers nail the tone of actual vintage Fanes in direct A/B tests.


Identical construction to the later stamped steel Fane "Purples" with identical magnets, voice coil, etc. They are pre-broken in and voiced to sound identical to 25+ year old Fane Purples, with the prototypes having been A/B tested against vintage Hiwatt/Fane cabs at the most recent Vintage Hiwatt Convention. So they probably sound a little different to how those Fanes sounded when they were new - but that's the tone most Hiwatt players want.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Just putting it out there that we could do our own little Fane test at my place. Seeing as I have Fanes, a Hiwatt, and a Triwatt, all we'd have to do is get our hands on the other speakers people want compared and we could do up a set of clips... the only thing is someone else would have corral the other speakers for the test and get them to me as I'd never be able to put together the time to co-ordinate the whole thing...

It'd be nice to have a good set of clips for comparison...

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

When you're talking about sensitivity you have make sure you understand what that really means. I'm not sure if guitar speakers follow the same measuring "standard" as hi-fi/audio speakers. Usually sensitivity is measured at 1 watt or power with a 1khz tone 1 meter from the speaker (I assume miked on-axis & centered but I really don't know for sure).

So, the Cannibis Rex may be 102db with those criteria, but that is a very specific point (and it's also where the human ear is most sensitive). It you look at the response curve of the C-Rex, you will see it's pretty flat (around 100db) from about 100hz until 1K where there's a small spike, then a bit of a dip & a much bigger spike around 2K. Then it drops rapidly back to around 100db at 5K, and that's about the limit of the usable freq range of the speaker (one could argue it does fairly well up to 6K, but the characteristics of the human ear really come into play there too - another discussion...see below).

What that tells me is the C-Rex is probably a pretty middy speaker, especially in the middle to upper midrange (the guitar's wheelhouse, especially for leads), but with some darkness in there that probably helps smooth things out a little. It also tell me the lower (guitar) range is probably balanced, but not particularly strong. Not a problem in context, especially in a band/jam situation. If you want more balance across the tonal spectrum, I would think a speaker with a more relaxed upper mid & top end with a more present bottom end would complement it well.

Now, a few words about how the human ear perceives sound. Even though the sensitivity curve for the C-Rex is relatively flat, keep in mind that the human ear's sensitivity curve is NOT. In fact, it's much like a bell curve with the peak being in the 1-2 khz range (the general range of the human voice). In order to hear the higher & lower registers at comparable perceived volume levels you need a great deal more power. That's why bass amps tend to be far more powerful than guitar amps. Keep in mind to that our ears react differently depending on volume too.

So, that's why a G12H30 makes a great match with a Vintage 30. The V30 is bright with lots of mid punch, and the G12H is darker with a stronger bottom end.

Bottom line, SPL numbers are generally referring to a specific point in the frequency spectrum and under very specific recording conditions, and are based on an "all things being equal" caveat. In real world applications it doesn't have a whole lot of meaning. Yes it will sound louder compared to another speaker with a lower sensitivity under the same very specific conditions, but if you start throwing different frequencies at it it may be a very different story.

So with respect to your original question, looking at the response curve for the Super V12, I would think it is even more relaxed in the bottom end with a big spike (like 105db) up around 2-3k with much more extension into the top end. I expect mixing it with the C-rex would result in a rather bright & snappy combination, especially for leads (and considering the Super V12 is George Lynch's baby, this is no surprise). I expect it would have no problem cutting through a mix. You will have an emphasis in the upper range with a pretty laid back bottom end.

All things being equal...

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SG + Brit tube head = Nirvana

Actually I think a CRex and a Lynch Super V12 would produce a very dark sound, since both speakers roll off quite steeply from around 5kHz, although the V12 bounces back very slightly further up in the range. Note the comment from Eminence about the Fane-derived Super V12, "Compared to the Tonker, it's a little darker and less efficient. It's a creamier tone with more subdued highs, where the Tonker is very clear and open on the highs. It's a nice one if you are looking for a more mellow tone and maybe you need to tame a bright amp."

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

the crex is definitely on the darker side. Which is fine, as it's not at all muffled or blurry on the high end of things... just a bit dark. From what I heard, and saw in the freq response... the v12 has a bit more grittiness to it on the upper end of things.

My main concern is be that the lynch speaker gets drowned out by the crex. What do you guys think?

thanks

zack

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dig it

OK - fair enough.

Perhaps I can try a different terminology. Let's say instead I expect the combination of the C-rex & Lynch to have a strong mid/upper mid focus with a relatively relaxed bottom end. I wouldn't expect the combo to be "bright" in this context, but maybe brighter than I like personally.

For context, I have a Red Fang, and that has some similarities in the upper mids & top end rolloff to the Lynch (with the Lynch being a little more erratic overall, but a similar base character). I consider the Fang to be a pretty bright speaker (for my taste), so I would expect the lynch to be similar.

Until you hear it you never really know how they're gonna play together!

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SG + Brit tube head = Nirvana

I'm real allergic to bright sounding amps and speakers too. However, if the Super V12s are a Fane Purple clone, then I would expect their tone to be smooth on the top end and almost smoky - not bright under anyone's definition. A Hiwatt played through a Fane Purple cab sounds very smooth and even, despite the Hiwatts own high-end emphasis.

Zack, I don't think the efficiencies of those speakers are different enough to really matter a lot.Together they will tend to fill in the gaps in each other's response curves.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Zaphod

I'm with you on the aversion to brightness...

Thanks.

I think i'll start looking for one of those v12's and drop the other speaker in to a combo amp.

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dig it

Your post was chock full of interesting information, but I suppose for me, this pretty much covered it.

I used to have a Tonker, and I really, really liked that speaker. Now I know that it never was really a clone of any Fane, but it just happened to be in the same neighborhood more or less as some Fanes (very generally speaking). Cool, now I know!

I also gather that, for a nice foundation for a very Gilmour-esque rig at 22 watts, a Trinity Triwatt pumping into one or two BBQ FC-12 speakers would probably be a really nice way to start.

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Go Buckeyes!

You bet!

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

I have a pair of FC12 on order so I can try them out in my THD 2x12. If that doesn't work as well as I hope, or even if it does for that matter, I'll wind up dropping them in a Jeff Swanson's WEM-type cabs.

UPDATE: The BBQ FC12s came in on Saturday and after a good old solder burn or two they were in business. First thing that I've noticed is that they are significantly less efficient than the THD speakers, a Longhorn (like a modified Celestion Classic Lead 80) and a Vintage (like a brown-labelled Oxford from a '60s Fender). That's not necessarily a bad thing, as I can now heat the power section up a bit more. So far I like what I hear, but I'm not going to say more until I get a lot more playing time in with them.

Sounds cool! We will be expecting some more Floyd clips in the near future.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!