trinityamps.com

My apologies for any flame fanning I've done - I think where I'm coming from is obvious enough, and restating it isn't constructive, so I won't.

I agree w/ Coco - I don't think we have all the facts. Some of my posts have implied that none of us knows fully enough what is broken to close ranks or take sides. This thing is a royal mess probably because a lot of people did a lot of things to mishandle the situation. The guilty will have the punishment of having to get through to the other side of things. In some or all cases this will likely be excessive punishment.

The boycott thing - I always feel these are silly except when I think I've been personally wronged. I don't feel personally wronged in any of this. Any choice to deal with these vendors or not will be based on their products and my perception of what it would be like to deal with them for customer service. One vendor's product doesn't interest me, personally, but if it did, I don't see a reason not to buy it.

And I wouldn't use Mr. Meltdown in an amp, either, based on the general experience of many forum members on that product. BBQ probably ought to go back to the drawing board on that one. But the mess is not particularly about that product.

Bear

I do know the facts, but I won't stir things up any more than they already or say more than I already have.

I've been kicking around the idea of starting a forum of my own and have even had one online for a while now. Kind of a totally neutral kind of thing that doesn't cater to any specific amps or brands. Maybe similar to Ampage, but with a format that is easier on the eyes?

Anyone interested in hanging out at a new place?

http://www.s2amps.com/forum.html

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--s2
www.s2amps.com
www.category5amps.com

hello there, has anyone asked lord valve, tube tramp, or tag to chime in with their opinions? nevermind, an attempt at comic relief. rh

Do we have the time to decode them?

There's plenty of blame for everyone, even the moderators, but to lob a nuke when a friendly note would do is a little extreme. I think BBQ had a point but he blew it up a little large.

I was one of those that defended BBQ because I had good experiences with him, but I did so by sharing just that - my experiences. BBQ sells a lot of products that fit a need or pricepoint, so not all of it is boutique quality. But most of it is very good. I didn't attack anyone who simply had a problem with a BBQ product. But I did feel the other person (Moo-A?) was unfair a lot of the time toward any potential competitor and responded to that. I wasn't involved in the rectifier substitute thread, but watched it with a little disgust. The moderators should have delt with Moo-A sooner.

As for knowing the full story, maybe Gabi is the only one who almost does. We don't live in the heads of the protagonists. From what I've come to understand, this is just an overblown mess.

I just hope the 18 watt forum will get back to some semblance of it's earlier self. After bnwitt's little adventure we felt a chill, but it recovered. I hope it will recover from this.

_________________
Richard Johnson
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Playing an insturment doesn't make you a musician, listening does

My point on this, is that the lawsuit threat was WAY too extreme...

I take serious exception to threatening a lawsuit on a message board, when a person is to blame!

The particulars of this situation may very well have some additional issues...but the fact of the matter is that the lawsuit threat *immediately* eclipsed the seriousness of anything else...and that to me is the problem.

It's alot like trying to sue the gun manufacturer when a person had to pull the trigger.

BBQboy did the wrong thing...and I wont patronize him....period.

I have a question, well two actually.

1. Why would you take a perfectly good amp designed to work with a tube rectifier sag (which in my book is part of the character) and stick a SS unit in it anyway.

2. Why would you take a perfectly good amp designed around a turret board and etch the design on a PCB, I thought the whole idea was to get away from PCBs. Maybe I have misread DIY vintage amp building altogether.

Nigel

Nigel, I think that is a good subject for a new post.

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

I think its a major drag to be deprived of 18W, I {having now figured out the references} Think BBQ is way over the top in this instance, and I dont need to know all tha facts to know how sickening it is to hear that crap from Ironman all the time! Even now I doubt he will be deprived of his membership.
Charliewired

Guess that clinches my decision to use a Celestion Blue in my next build...

BBQ has a history of having a thin skin for any criticism, and has banned customers in the past for making any negative statements in public.

I think many would echo your sentiments Charlie, I believe that the Iron gentleman has been tolerated because in the early days he was an active and knowlegable poster if a little firey. He has been walking the line for some time in my opinion and if he comes out of this unscathed I would be dissapointed. 18Watt is a veritable mine of information for builders as well as a generally cool place to hang out and the majority of vendors using the site have been courteous to each other, acknowledging that there many ways to skin a cat. I would think that it would take a long time for a forum to build up that amount of information and I would be angry to see it go however it could be that it is never quite the same. I think it is important for all of us who are active in the community to make use of the various forums that are out there, Trinity is one that I have belonged to for some time and I would be happy to see the population grow here, Stephen is a great guy and definitely not pushy s2 has also set up a forum which will be interesting to watch grow as well.
Nigel

That is dead wrong. Only one member, before now, has been banned from 18watt.com in it's entire existance. And that was for an egregious act that happen off the site and only after many warnings. And only about 5 "real" threads have been deleted in all that time. 99% of threads that are deleted at 18watt.com are classified ad post from a member with fewer than 20 real post, or ones with overt obscenity and little "real" content. I see the private admins forum at 18watt.com, where all deleted threads are stored, and I know that to be true.
mark durham

ps. Talk of a boycott against any vendor is just silly. If someone is making shoddy products, the marketplace will take care of that in it's own good time. That's the American way. People that buy shoddy products because they are a good "value" get what they pay for. I don't boycott WalMart. I just never shop there because they sell junk. I feel the same way about some DIY amp suppliers. But I don't go around saying who they are in public.
And if I think someone is a jerk, I don't want to talk about that in public either, but if I ever see them in person they better have their flameproof suit on. ha!

Thanks for setting the record straight. It's better to deal with facts.
And I agree, the marketplace will take care of itself. Caveat Emptor! [let the buyer beware].

_________________
Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

......Haggered amp builder, bewildered about losing his amp home walks into the room. He rubs his eyes and steps in front of the huddled crowd.

"Hi, I'm allynmey and I'm an ampaholic"

I just sent Gabi a paypal how do you do. I suggest we all do. I'm sure the site will be up soon. BBQ boy should have posted an objection, even an explanation and for that matter, a challenge to our boy from "Whoville".

He would have gained respect amongst the civilized. Now he will lose business. I don't know how much because he does have a following. I won't buy from him anytime soon not because of any "boycott" but, rather a violation of the rules of discourse. I really wonder if he knew what would happen when his idiot lawyer suggested sending a threatening letter, for a fee of course, to Gabi and our admins? I hope Gabi realizes that bbq's lawyer is an idiot if he thinks he can prevail against a person for Libelous statements of a third party. Libel and slander are almost impossible to prove in this case because Mr. BBQ will have to open his books and prove that his sales of a specific product in question have dramatically gone down immediately following the statement of "Mr. Whoville". Absolutely impossible. The advertisers on 18 watt should sue Mr. BBQ for infringing on their businesses due to lost revenue because of the absence of the site in which they pay for advertisement. It's all ridiculous!!!!!!! Maybe we should shove all the world lawyers in a big "Copper C", take out the fuse, and hit the juice and see how they work!

Allynmey

Sorry for the rant in advance.

Nominal damages would likely be on the table even if economic damages can't be shown. But that probably never would have come up.

A Cease and Desist is pretty bloody cheap, and effective enough to scare the crap out of people who don't know its utility as a bluff. People who aren't worth suing often don't know it and are afraid of the costs they'll incur defending a suit that'll never be filed. A lawyer would have to be making a really high percent of zilch to work that case. Charge a flat fee, though, for the C&D, and you don't do too badly for maybe a couple hours spent writing a letter. Heck, you can bill the client for postage.

Think of it, maybe $200 to end a non-stop stream of online criticism - that sounds like a pretty good deal to a businessman. If I were to find out the businessman didn't exhaust civilized options first, I wouldn't be inviting him over to brunch in a hurry, though.

Bear

Only if word gets around. Many businesses thrive on deception and deceit in our current "open marketplace". Just yesterday a major tax preperation firm has been called out.
I don't think this is a case of willfull deceit but one of a small businessman trying to extricate himself from an awkward situation - i.e. recieving a less-than-acceptable product from some outside source. He doesn't "manufacture" these things does he?

With respect, there's a big difference between boycott and avoiding a product based on quality. A boycott is almost always done so to protest an action not to increase awareness regarding quality (which, if quality is an issue, that will usually sort itself out).

From here on, I'm not going to patronize BBQ anymore. I've purchased products from him in the past, but I'm done with him. I'm not doing so because his products are substandard or they explode or they kill people that use them (or whatever silly things I've read here). I'm doing so because BBQ decided to solve this problem with a very excessive use of force. Until I hear from a trusted source that this didn't happen, I am going to refrain from giving the person business. I've stated my case quite clearly here....

If you want to purchase product from BBQ. Go right ahead. I can't stop you (i.e. free enterprise)...But I will not purchase from someone that tries to take out the little man in a statuatory fassion. It's a dispicable action and it needs to be discouraged....

The reality is that those who actually built BBQ kits or used his products were generally happy and I don't really think they had too many issues. People with a certain PCB kit also had issues. People have had issues with every kit made. A lot of the people building are first time or novice builders. Even an experienced builder can have issues with a design he's built a 100 times with no issues.

It just seems that a certain rusty individual had it in for mr BBQ and took every opportunity to badmouth products he had never even seen. And not just mr BBQ, but others as well. The admins should have dealt with this whether he was a long time member or not. I think if BBQ had seen a few unflattering posts, he would have been ok, but it probably appeared like an attack led by a certain person.

Having traded emails with BBQ in the past on the subject of negativity on the 18watt forum, I think he just got very angry. He obviously reached the point where he thought some of the threads were unacceptable. So he reacted to correct an aggregious situation.

Unfortunately it looks like he WAY overreacted, which I think is a valid cause for an individual considering his purchasing habits. Fair enough.

Those who want to spend their money with him can and those who don't don't have to.

_________________
Richard Johnson
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Playing an insturment doesn't make you a musician, listening does

Perhaps the last part of my post is a bit too circumspect, but I can assure you we are in total agreement.

Circumspect: definition-heedful of potential consequences.

Ah, you know mark...I might be overreacting anyway...I'm just kinda pissy to see this happen to 18watt. I think everyone over there is just fabulous...and It really ticks me off to see something like this happen.

-Frank

I got an unexpected call today from Anthony at Reason Amps. Hopefully the site will be up in a few days. One of the things he mentioned to me is that if ANYONE asks for help specifically with a BBQ kit...They WILL be directed to the BBQ forums. I agree with this but can't help thinking that many of his customers don't know or care about this and will be punished for buying from him anyway. I also speculate that negative comments about BBQ boy will be prohibited, but I don't know that for sure!

This whole thing is a mess.