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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:04 pm 
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About 10-15 years ago, I owned a Trace Elliot Velocette 12R. Trace actually made two versions of this amp. Both were 15 watt "class A" dual EL84 amps with minimal controls:

Original:
10" Celestion speaker
Volume and Tone controls

12R:
12" Celestion Vintage 30 speaker
Volume, Tone and REVERB controls
Pentode/Triode switch

As I understood it at the time, Trace created these as a sort of retro nod to older British amps (thus the automotive name and British racing green tolex on the first few years of production). They were said to be a Vox type circuit. The chassis actually sat in the bottom of the combo cabinet with the controls actually facing to the rear. From the front, you only saw a speaker cutout in the tolex. Even from the top, no controls like a Tweed, just a handle.

I absolutely loved the tone of this amp. It was probably my favorite all around clean (and clean-ish) amp I've ever owned. But the rear facing controls just drove me nuts. I sold it eventually to help fund the purchase of a Mesa Boogie Blue Angel. My thinking was that the EL84 mode of the Blue Angel would cover the same ground. It sort of did, but it really wasn't the same. It was a BIG sort of quad EL84 sound (sort of loud like an AC30). It sounded great, but it wasn't the same.

I've since built a Trinity 18. I did the sIII V6 version. In the EL84 mode, it's sort of in the same territory, but not exactly. Don't get me wrong. I really like my Trinity 18. I especially like how it's able to get dirty in a Marshall sort of way. Also like how certain pedals sound in front of it. But even though it's an 18 watt, dual EL84 amp, it doesn't have that (I assume) Vox-ness that the Trace had.

Heck, for all I know, maybe it wasn't just the amp circuit. Maybe I just liked the way an EL84 amp sounded when fed into a Vintage 30. Could be... I do have an Eminence Private Jack loaded in the vintage style (i.e. big box) 1x12 cab that's hooked up to my Trinity. That's supposed to be a Greenback type clone.

My question is this. Does the TC-15 sort of do that vintage Vox type thing, or is it some sort of gainy Matchless type thing?

Between an 18 watt and a TC-15, which Trinity comes closest to that Vox/Trace flavor?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Is the the correct schematic? http://www.webphix.com/schematic%20heav ... tte12r.pdf

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Just got back in town from vacation...

Awesome find. That most certainly is the one. I had forgotten how clever the Tone control was. Turn CCW to roll off treble. Turn CW to roll off mids. No true compromise since guitars have treble toll off tone controls too.

Steven, based on that PDF, are we talking Trinity 18 or TC-15?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:56 pm 
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I'll have to compare it with the schematics in the resource section. It will come down to the PI and first triode stage and ignore the tone section.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Awesome. Can't wait to get your input.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:53 pm 
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bump!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:18 pm 
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double bump! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:58 pm 
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Definitely closest to an 18W. You could take a standard 18W and mod it a bit to get it even closer to the amp in question.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:07 am 
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Sorry, have not had any time to look at it. thanks Kurtlives.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Thanks

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:18 pm 
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I had forgotten how clever the Tone control was.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:19 pm 
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Finally played my Trinity 18 with a Vintage 30. By George, I think this is it!

My Trinity is the sIII v6 variety. I had been playing it with a vintage style closed back 1x12 loaded with an Eminence Private Jack, which is their take on a higher powered G12H 30. I have another open back 2x12 cab that had a Celestion Gold in one spot and nothing in the other. Over the last year or so, I've used an A-B box I built to compare the speakers, but never really totally bonded with one or the other with the 18 watt for BOTH clean and gainier tones.

I finally ordered a Vintage 30 (like there used to be in my old Velocette) and A-B'd it with the Private Jack and the Gold. On clean tones, I could've gone in any of three directions based on mood and guitar in use. But with the Gain and Volume on the TMB channel cranked with the VRM dialed back, it was a no brainer. I loved the way the Vintage 30 sounded. Took away all that harsh, fuzzy top that was apparent with both the Gold and the Private Jack. And it's not even broken in yet.

Put the Vintage 30 into the closed back cab (had been A-B'ing with it in the open back 2x12) and was even more pleased. Done deal. That V30 will stay in the cab dedicated to the Trinity 18. The Private Jack and Celestion Gold now coexist in the open back Avatar 1x12 for use with other amps.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:36 pm 
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Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have thought that at all. Good to know this!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:29 pm 
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It kind of surprised me in some ways, but not others. As I began this thread, I was wondering which British type circuit would be closest to that Velocette I had a decade plus ago. After all the responses, it seemed the 18 was close, but something was missing. Well, that amp had a Vintage 30. So I really hoped to recreated that feel/sound.

But I didn't want to mess up a good thing. I wanted to do a few A-B comparisons with three different speakers. As I said (or meant to say), the 18 sounds really, really good with the Alnico Celestion Gold on either channel with eitehr EL84 or 6V6 in clean settings. Just a really, really pretty and full clean sound. So nice. Especially with EL84 tubes, it sounds good (almost "right") with the Private Jack too. There's a classic thing going on that may not be as good (as if good or better were measurable...) as the Gold, but just seems right.

With the Vintage 30, it sounded good, nice, whatever too, just different from either of those other speakers - which were themselves different from each other.

But what jumped out at me almost instantly was how it sounded on the TMB channel with:
- boost engaged
- Volume cranked to the 7 to 10 range
- Gain cranked to the 7-10 range
- VRM dialled back to keep the windows from rattling
With both the Gold and the Private Jack, there's a certain top end harshness or fuzziness that is there when the amp is that dirty. I liken it to how a Blackface Fender type amp sounds with an OD, distortion or fuzz box with the Bright switch ON.
With the Vintage 30, although you have that high mid, almost treble spike that makes it cut through, those upper harmonics that would be all fuzzy or harsh are just gone. I liken that to playing the exact same BF Fender with those exact same dirt pedals, but turning that bright switch OFF. Whereas the Gold and Jack were noticably different on dirty sounds, the Vintge 30 was night and day different. It just makes the Vintage 30 a complete winner with those dirty sounds.

I'll still have to do some more listening at the other end of the EQ spectrum. But I didn't notice any of the three speakers having much trouble flubbing out on dirty bass tones. I think the Jack and the 30 both have tighter (i.e. rolled back) lower frequencies than the Gold, so maybe they handle dirty sound a little less flubby. But then again, the Bass knob on the front of the amp almost always takes care of that. And besides, all three speakers can handle plenty of wattage and the amp itself isn't a monster, especially with the VRM.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Oh, and by the way, all my doinking around was with a Les Paul with P90s. I have yet to play a humbucker Les Paul or a Strat with the Trinity/Vintage 30 combo.

The reason I did that was because I used to love the combination of my Trace Elliot with a parts Tele I built (mahogany body with maple cap, maple neck, pau ferro board, traditional Tele pickups). It just really did those Mike Campbell (Don Henley, Tom Petty) type things well. It was that tone/feel for which I was nostalgic.

My P90-loaded Les Paul has a coil tap on each pickup that allows full output or attenuated (a few coils obviously tapped) output for cleaner rhythm tones. Comes in handy for faux Tele stuff. Does the trick for A-B comparisons.

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